BLADES OF STEEL: THE FINAL RIDE

“Ends are not bad things, they just mean that something else is about to begin. And there are many things that don't really end, anyway, they just begin again in a new way. Ends are not bad and many ends aren't really an ending; some things are never-ending.”--C. Joybell C.

Yes, the final bell has rung for Blades of Steel Metalfest. If you read my rundown of the 2025 edition of the Fest, you knew this was a real possibility. This fact will not really sink in until we get into 2027 and realize that yes, there will be no festival. One of life’s great cliches is “you don’t know what you’ve got until it’s gone”. The reason it’s a cliche is that it is 100% true.

These yearly events began as the NYDM Spring Bash before changing over to Blades of Steel. I will talk later about the memories, the feelings and the fun I had at these events. As much fun as they were for me, it was not so much fun for the Wizard of Watertown, Randy Kastner, who slaved like a dog to put together something special. If the monetary reward equaled the gratitude of the metalheads who attended over the years, this could have continued into infinity. But that was not the reality and when you see the 6 decade mark approaching and you still have to work 60-70 hours a week to keep a roof over your head, hard choices must be made. This had to be one of the most difficult decisions that Randy ever made.

So maybe a little bit more effort went into putting Blades VI together. I can tell you that knowing it was the end made things stand out a little more for me. I put a sizable portion of my life into attending these events, meeting these people, seeing these bands. But knowing that things must come to an end gives life its savor.

Well, let me wipe a tear from my eye and dive right into describing the Fest. I’m proud to say I saw every single band that played. I’ll spend more time waxing rhapsodic when we come to the end of this account…

THURSDAY SEPT. 17

The weather was appropriate for an event that had aspects of a funeral…rainy, overcast and gloomy. I made good time up from the Lab to The Crucible Club, donned the bloody lab jacket and entered the domain of Steel…

Already the crowd for the opener was bigger than what we had for Thursday’s headliner last year. And if you wanted to pick a perfect band to embody the true spirit of heavy metal to kick things off, it would have been almost impossible to make a better choice than LIVING FAST. These Florida dudes look like they emerged from a wormhole with the other end in 1983. I have not seen a guy wearing striped pants and a fur vest on stage since the very early 80’s, which was the time period they drew most inspiration from. The crazy thing was, not a single member of this band was alive when this style of music was at its peak. That’s no putdown and it is awesome to see young guys so devoted to this brand of speed metal with heavy NWOBHM and hard rock influences. These dudes liked to play it fast but melodic, with Stefano Gugliotta’s ear-piercing screams leading the way. I got a chance to talk to Stefano a couple of times during the course of the Fest and you won’t find a guy who has metal on the brain more than him.

LIVING FAST started things with a bang and proved there is still a place for guitarists who wear a “Rising Sun” T-shirt in 2026. The past is now the future. That was a theme we saw more than once over this weekend. A very encouraging trend!

Next up was one of Wisconsin’s own, the ghastly VIOGRESSION. This was maybe the most overtly death metal band of the entire weekend and they leaned into a heavy OBITUARY groove with no apologies. It was morbid, sludgy stuff with occasional bursts of barbaric quickness and a slight progressive edge which is more obvious on their records. Brian Deneffe sounds like John Tardy’s long lost brother as the band powered through both classic tracks from “Expound and Exhort” and newer cuts from their recommended current album “Thaumaturgic Veil”. They were a reminder of a time when Wisconsin had one of the best death metal scenes in the States. Come to think of it, there are quite a few newer Cheesehead death metal acts like YOTUMA and RUIN DWELLER. And both of those acts played past editions of Blades as well. This is a fest where past, present and future merge into one.

With the departure of VOID, the rest of the night was considerably less frenzied. Madison’s own power metal warriors LORDS OF THE TRIDENT were up next. For quite a while, I always thought these guys were doing some kind of ironic spoof of heavy metal with their Lord of the Rings style get-ups and constant video game references. I can say now that these guys really believe in what they do. Tonight was the best show I’ve seen from the LORDS, playing a lot of fast and heavy metal with rousing melodies and high pitched vocals from the armor clad Fang Von Wrathenstein. Some of the melodies were on the cheesy side, but this set really stuck to driving power metal with slamming drums and strong riffs. It didn’t hurt that the sound was excellent throughout. One thing I find annoying is the video wall behind them full of CGI video game battles, fire-breathing dragons and even shills for their merch. This sort of thing really distracts from a band’s presence and I wish these guys would ditch it. Nevertheless, a strong set from the LORDS.

FIREWIND is a different kind of band for a fest like Blades of Steel and they stuck out like a sore thumb here. Featuring OZZY guitarist and new KING DIAMOND member Gus G., they brought a strong back catalog of melodic heavy metal to the night. A shame it came across so flat. My long-time compadre Johnny Vomit, a veteran of these fests, took off after about three songs. “This is just soulless slop!” he exclaimed. While Johnny usually dislikes any band with actual melodic singing, he wasn’t really wrong. I generally like the style of metal FIREWIND plays, but the songs and performance just didn’t do it for me. Gus was lively enough on stage, but his actual guitar playing wasn’t as impressive as I would have liked. I can’t see him taking Andy LaRoque’s place in KING DIAMOND at all. Singer Henning Basse was also pretty plastic as a frontman…I much preferred former singer Bob Katsionis.

FIREWIND had their fans, but when they announced they were going to get “groovy” and do a cover of MICHAEL SEMBELLO’s pop hit “Maniac”, things entered the realm of Spinal Tap. Bands doing covers of “Maniac” shouldn’t be playing Blades of Steel. In addition, for their last song of the night, the band asked the crowd to “jump the fuck up”...I”m not kidding. By the end of the set, this was just really bad.

Last act for Thursday was an unusual one. ENSIFERUM from Finland are leaders in the folk/pagan metal movement in Europe…not the kind of band we usually see at Blades. Then again, Madison is home to the Mad With Power power metal fest and power metal is not a million miles away from what these guys do, so maybe it does make sense. I kind of thought a lot of the crowd would leave after FIREWIND…some did, but not that many. I was curious to see what these guys brought to the table.

They are not my preferred genre, but they were entertaining in a goofy way and very professional in their stagecraft. What was odd about ENSIFERUM was that one song could be blazing fast black metal with sandpaper throat vocals and the next would be a happy drinking song like a heavy metal polka. The band boasted two main vocalists, one for harsh vocals, and the other sounding almost like a tenor from an opera. The whole band joined in sometimes on the “singalong” songs, which had an infectious quality.

In the end, they were too far outside of my lane to really get into…a couple of tracks were straight up corny…but I rather liked their catchy approach to songwriting and their Viking image was also something unique for the Fest.

So much for Day One. The real meat of the Fest was yet to come.

FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 18

Another grey and miserable day outside, but once inside the Crucible Club, the metal was hot! Friday was the thrasher’s paradise, with all the early bands on the fast side of the fence and the venerable GAMMACIDE from Texas putting in an appearance.

The only band I absolutely didn’t have a clue about was P.I.L.A.U. from Hawaii! I got an education really fast! These guys were great and threw down some blistering fast thrash metal much in the vein of NUCLEAR ASSAULT, especially the vocalist’s nasal shouts. Another young band getting their inspiration from the old school, with a lot of nods to SLAYER, EXODUS and D.R.I. in their relentless attack. Once in a while, they’d drop to a nice moshy chug, but not too often. I have no idea what the initials P.I.L.A.U. actually stand for but I hope to hear more from these wild island boys…good set from them!

There was no relief in sight as New York’s ELECTROCUTIONER took the stage next. More blistering speed…the lead singer was also the band’s only guitarist and man, this guy’s fingers were almost invisible as he ripped off some great solos and fills as well as machine gun riffs. The picking was a bit cleaner than what we got from P.I.L.A.U and PHANTOM the night before, a bit more on the Bay Area side of things. Still a real high energy gig and I would think these guys could be on Metal Blade or Napalm before too long.

SADISTIC FORCE are a band that has kind of flown under the radar over the years, but the real connoisseurs of underground metal know their name. For the most part, they kept things motoring along at a pretty high pace, but they have a more distinct and unusual style than the previous bands. There was a noticeable black metal influence in spots and also a couple of moments where the tempo dropped and a more “traditional” metal sound popped up. As far as I’m concerned, that’s great, because it helps SADISTIC FORCE stand out. Kastner’s fests have always featured real variety and even though thrash was the predominant style tonight, the bands didn’t blend together into an indecipherable mass. SADISTIC FORCE was another good addition to the gathering.

Last year, one of the acts I enjoyed the most was Florida’s insane ANTAGONIZÖR. I managed to become fast friends with the outrageous Sarah who fronts that band. Sadly, she couldn’t make it this year, but I remember her highly recommending a band called INTERCEPTOR to me. Well, INTERCEPTOR was up next on the Crucible stage and I was really looking forward to them. Best way to describe them is what MOTÖRHEAD or VENOM would sound like if they came from rural South Carolina. This wasn’t so much straight thrash metal as really nasty rock n’ roll tinged heavy metal. But the energy level was really high and there was a very earthy quality to their 3 man metal blitz. I guess fur vests must be coming back into style amongst metal bands, as this was the second bunch sporting them this weekend.

At one point, lead singer Bulldozer told us that the next INTERCEPTOR would be leaning more into Southern rock territory with some influence from MOLLY HATCHET and the like. Could be good, but I hope they don’t lose their metal edge altogether. Their show tonight featured more melodic vocals and guitar soloing than I would have predicted. But all in all, some down to Earth metal rock n’ roll from these country boys.

So far the fest really showed that young bands were stepping up and showing their worth. That didn’t mean that the old timers who laid the foundation were ready to go belly up and sail off into the sunset. Proof of that was the blistering set from Texas’ venerable thrashers GAMMACIDE. Holy shit, these guys tore into the crowd like a wolverine ripping up the carcass of a fawn! Although I still give PHANTOM the edge for intensity, GAMMACIDE played like their lives depended on it, tearing into classics from their “Victims of Science” album from 1989 as well as some new shit from their comeback “Toxic Mercenaries”. This band was always one of the fastest of the fast, but I didn’t expect them to prove it in 2026! Lots of non-stop headbanging and angry snarls from the vocalist. I kinda missed out on these dudes back in the day, but I’m going to look up “Toxic Mercenaries” for sure because it can run neck and neck with the likes of ELECTROCUTIONER, ENFORCED, P.I.L.A.U. and more! A real surprise and a most welcome one!

After five acts of unrelenting speed and aggression, Blades threw us a big curve next with the arrival of Michigan’s WANTED. I’ve been hearing a lot about these guys and was curious to see them live. In their way, they were just as intense as VOID and GAMMACIDE, but in a much different way. They exist in a zone where melodic heavy metal, classic hard rock and Sunset Strip glam all coexist. Big catchy riffs and a human fire truck siren for a vocalist, they had aspects of SKID ROW, W.A.S.P., early DEF LEPPARD and Rhett Forrester era RIOT mixed together with a sleazy image. The vocalist Sterling Primeau was a little guy with big 80’s hair and an open jacket and lung power that could blow out every window in the place. What a vocal performance! This guy’s falsettos are so high that I think they sterilized me for life. If you liked straight heavy metal and hard rock, this was the band for you. They had good stage presence and played with fire. If you can accept that metal can be intense without being 1000 mph an hour, WANTED is a band to watch. I wish they would change their name because there’s at least 20 other bands called WANTED I can think of off the top of my head.

We were now getting to the meat of Night Two, as Florida’s legendary prog metallers CRIMSON GLORY took to the stage. This was my first time watching this band in any configuration and it was pretty obvious a lot of people were hear to see them. They have finally left any and all vestiges of their metal masks behind…the strips of tin foil they were wearing in recent publicity photos looked pretty silly, to be honest.

This was a band that just missed being on the level of QUEENSRYCHE back in the day. Their self-titled debut and especially the follow-up “Transcendence” remain absolute classics to this day. After that, they seemed to go off the rails for a while and their amazing original singer Midnight sadly passed away as well. But early 2026 brought their comeback album “Chasing The Hydra”, which is very much in the classic CRIMSON style. The big question was, could new singer Travis Wills live up to the legacy of Midnight in a live setting?

The verdict was very much affirmative. The band played a nostalgic set that was heavy on the first two albums, with great speedy tracks like “Red Sharks”, “Masque of the Red Death” and “Queen of the Masquerade” all making welcome appearances. Wills’ voice is 100% capable of handling Midnight’s highs as well as a more restrained mid-range. I don’t think any CRIMSON GLORY fan could complain about their performance tonight, which also featured melodic metal highpoints like “Lady Of Winter” and “Lonely”. Whatever FIREWIND lacked the night before, they possessed in abundance.

Tonight’s headliner was SANCTUARY, a band joined at the hip with their sister act NEVERMORE. Both acts have been in cold storage until about a year ago, when both came back to life. Both bands featured the unique voice of Warrel Dane, who sadly passed away in 2017. SANCTUARY came into existence first and featured an unusual type of gloomy heavy metal that wasn’t quite thrash but had more oomph than standard metal. NEVERMORE was a more refined version of what SANCTUARY was but both bands achieved cult status.

The biggest challenge for modern day SANCTUARY was finding someone to replace Dane’s one of a kind vocal attack. I’m not sure that he can ever be totally replaced but Joseph Michael does about as good a job as anybody is liable to do. He has great range but generally works in the same vocal zone as Dane did. As for SANCTUARY’s live performance this night, they did fine but it struck me as a bit workman like. Not to the point where it hurt the show, though, which relied heavily on the two classic Sanctuary albums, “Sanctuary” and “Into the Mirror Black”. The guitar work remains as excellent as always, with a strong nod to the more melodic side of heavy metal. It was really Michael who commanded attention, though, and we got to hear something new that fit in well with the rest of the set. Hopefully SANCTUARY can regain their position and even improve on it.

That brought Night Two to a close and this Doctor was in need of a snooze, especially with Saturday being the longest day. Back to the Laboratory!

SATURDAY SEPTEMBER 19TH

Well, this was it…the end of the road. Last day for Blades of Steel. The news had gone out that tonight was sold out, so I expected a madhouse. Also, it has got to be frustrating to draw your biggest crowd on the last night of the last festival. Where were these people when you needed them?

First up on Saturday was Denver band CELESTIAL WIZARD, who were…quite something. I remember thinking their album “Regenesis” was not half bad, but that didn’t translate to the live stage as their show was quite the mess. Are they black metal? Power metal? Straight up metal? Thrash? They were all of these things and as you might expect, all over the place. The music came across as pretty incoherent and the vocals in particular were lacking. They did a cover of OZZY’s “Crazy Train” that would have had Sharon taking out a hit on them. But this band had one thing going for them and that was energy. They didn’t lack enthusiasm and hit the stage with a surplus of chutzpah. If their songwriting ever matches their energy, we might be in for a good band…

After this goofy opener, it was time to put on high top sneakers and get ready to thrash once more. Called in to replace TRENCHER when they had to drop out, VELOSITY was yet another killer thrash band that lived up to their name with a barrage of absolutely relentless speed. A three piece, these guys were right up there with PHANTOM and GAMMACIDE in delivering the goods. They reminded me more of the feral German thrash of olde than the more precise Bay Area type. Particularly amazing was their drummer, who boasted a mohawk that brushed the lights and who seemed to be in the 350-375 lbs range. This guy was an absolutely LUNATIC who played like a hyperactive octopus! The bass player, who resembled a younger Danny Trejo, was also something to watch. I would surely keep an eye on these guys, who are part of the new generation of thrash metal that’s out for blood.

Blades of Steel’s “house band” is BRAY ROAD, who play the fest every year. Considering that these dudes work like biblical Hebrews keeping the show running smoothly behind the scenes, a yearly gig seems to be the least that they can be rewarded with. They seemed just a bit meaner than usual this time out. I compare them somewhat to tonight’s headliners METAL CHURCH, in that they can thrash it up but also play just pure traditional metal with a strong groove. We got standards like “Burn”, “Ten Faced Human Waste”, and “Possible Violence”, along with a brand new track from a forthcoming album that sounded pretty fierce. Hats off to Nino, Pete and David…the metal scene is built on the backs of guys like this.

Last time I saw CASTLE was either the first edition of Blades of Steel or the last of the NYDM Spring Bash, I forget which. This gritty doom/stoner rock band built on the husband and wife team of Mat Davis and Elizabeth Blackwell provided something refreshingly different for the fest. Instead of thrashing like maniacs or indulging in power/prog metal, CASTLE specialized in greasy, groovy heavy rock with a sizable helping of doom. Lady Blackwell has a great “biker chick” presence on stage and her voice has some real bluesy character…a nice contrast to the operatic divas dominating the scene. The crowd was very receptive to CASTLE’s tunes, which included new tracks like “Carrie Chains” and “Blacklands” as well as classic cuts. I enjoyed the set but I do have to admit, by the end, it started to blur together a bit.

It was kind of fitting that Washington State cult thrashers COVEN 6669 played on the last ever night of this Fest, as it was also the last night for their long-time singer Jamie Carter. In a novel turn, Jamie shared lead vocals tonight with his hand-picked replacement, Charlie Aust. These guys were formerly known as just COVEN, which the psychedelic occult band of long standing did not take too kindly to. I was never a big fan of these guys on record, but live, it’s a different story, as they put on a fun show full of thrashing power and low I.Q. blasphemy. Jamie is an engaging frontman and Charlie looks to be a good replacement even if he looks like he’s ready to jump into a pro wrestling ring and take somebody’s head off. They traded vocals on and off throughout the set, which contained long time favorites like “Succubus” and what seems to be COVEN 6669’s anthem, “Iron Dick”. These guys won’t be rivalling RUSH for incisive lyrical content, but they sure know how to thrash it up on stage.

The last night of the fest got considerably scrambled when Denmark’s ARTILLERY dropped off the lineup. That was a big disappointment to me, because those guys kick ass, but I was kind of expecting it. To make up for the loss, we actually got two bands…Milwaukee favorites MORBID SAINT, who have played many editions of the fest, and the Pacific Northwest’s FORCED ENTRY, who were a presence back in the Golden Age of Thrash. FORCED ENTRY was first up. To be brutally honest, I was never a huge fan of these guys and their “second-tier” status back in the day was well deserved. The lead vocalist and guitarist looked almost exactly like my high school shop teacher Mr. Zeller and believe me, that’s not a look that any underground metal band should cultivate. They played kind of a basic, chugging thrash that rarely hit the gas, but they did have a spectacular end to their set with a great cover of METALLICA’s “Creeping Death”, where they had Dean from COVEN 6669 join them on stage. They did this classic justice, but when the best song in your gig is a cover, that kind of says something, too.

By now the club was packed to the gills in a way I haven’t seen at Crucible. I wonder where some of these people were in years past? Nonetheless, it was a rabid wolfpack that greeted MORBID SAINT when they hit the stage. I have seen these guys many times and compared to the first time or two I saw them, they’ve improved by leaps and bounds. Much like GAMMACIDE, this was an older band who just went all out on stage. I must admit, I did not see every minute of the gig tonight but what I saw was packed with energy and for the first time, crowd surfers hit the pit during the SAINT’s set.

I called GAMMACIDE and MORBID SAINT older bands from the glory days of the 80’s. Compared to England’s legendary RAVEN, they are young pups, as RAVEN were one of the very first, if not THE first, speed metal band. I thought that they too might drop off the bill as European bands seem to be Public Enemy #1 for U.S. Customs these days, but happily they were able to make it. Wow, these venerable English punters leave absolutely nothing on the table as they play like the Devil is on their tail. Mark Gallagher makes Angus Young look like Perry Como as he runs around the stage making goofy faces and hitting wild poses. The AC/DC comparison is somewhat apt, as RAVEN really sound like AC/DC played at 1000 mph. Mark’s brother John, wearing a portable mike, let loose with high pitched screams and rapid fire vocals while making his own way across the stage. Mention must also be made of drummer Mike Heller, young enough to probably be the grandson of either Gallagher brother…he easily kept up a ferocious drum pace all night. 

The RAVEN set included lots of old favorites like “Hell Patrol”, “Faster Than the Speed Of Light” and “On and On”, but also some newer stuff like “All Hell’s Breaking Loose” and “The Power”. They had the crowd in a frenzy throughout and a lot of the younger bangers stood with jaws open checking out a band with guys in their 60’s going apeshit crazy on stage. Only regret I had is that they couldn’t play a true headlining set.

Well, with the end of Blades of Steel at hand, there was only one thing left to do…go to CHURCH! METAL CHURCH, that is! There’s no doubt that this was the band the sold out crowd was there to see…things were uncomfortably packed and I wasn’t able to get close enough to take top notch pictures of the band. That being said, METAL CHURCH played about as good a set as you can do with just 11 songs. Starting off with the high energy of “Ton of Bricks”, this was a refreshed version of the band that had heavy hitters like Dave Ellefson and Ken Mary alongside band mainstay Kurdt Vanderhoof. Also new was vocalist Brian Allen, who perfectly followed in the footsteps of David Wayne and Mike Howe (R.I.P. to both) with his lusty nasal shouts. 

CHURCH had their congregation eating out of their hand as they launched into some classics like “Fake Healer”, “Gods of Wrath” and “Badlands”. They managed to shoehorn in a couple of tracks from their excellent new album “Dead To Rights” like the title track and “F.A.F.O.”, both of which very comfortably nestled next to the older tracks. There are some many great CHURCH songs that didn’t even get touched on, but what can you do during a festival set where time is at a premium? My body was starting to give way as the weekend caught up to me, but I swore to stick with it at least until the ultra-classic anthem “Metal Church” was played.

Naturally that was the absolute last song! I sincerely believe this to be one of the greatest metal tunes ever written, right up there with anything by PRIEST, SABBATH, METALLICA, you name it. It creates such an ominous feeling of creeping dread, it makes your skin crawl. The crowd was with them all the way even at this late stage of the game. And with the conclusion of the track, the curtain came down on the Blades of Steel fest and the era of underground metalfests promoted by Mr. Randy Kastner.

I could have lingered for what surely would have been a good after-party, but my old bones were creaking and it was time for the long trip home and whatever rest I could get before going to work the next day…

THE WRAP UP

When these events started in the late 00’s, I was at a much different place in my life. I was younger and had a lot more energy, but then that’s true of everybody else as well. I was also in a period of aimless depression, either out of work or stuck in a dead end job. A lot of the friends I spent time with in the 90’s had dropped by the wayside and I missed them. The friends of my youth were long gone.

So I found a lot of camaraderie and new friends at the events sponsored by the NYDM. The first Spring Bash I ever went to, I remember Bossman and Slayer from the Freeport, IL branch making me an “honorary member” of the club. That moment meant the world to me and from that point on, I made the pledge that I would attend as many of these fests as was possible.

I think I only missed the very first Spring Bash. After that, I caught them all. I loved the ones held at the now-defunct Metal Grill in Cudahy. That was a special place and time. For a couple of years, I even sold my diabolical Hot N Heavy hot sauce there. I also got to hang out not only with fellow concert-goers but also band members. I remember interviewing HAVOK and VENOMOUS MAXIMUS (whatever happened to them, anyway?) in particular. Last year, I had a ton of fun hanging out with Sarah from ANTAGONIZER and her bandmates. Also, last time was the very first time I ever got kicked out of a Festival! That was at the Crucible Club and I threw a pool noodle left over from BELUSHI SPEED BALL’s set behind the bar when they wouldn’t serve me. That was a rite of passage for sure!

And then there was the music. I don’t know how many bucket list bands I crossed off my list due to Randy’s festivals. Acts like ARTILLERY, ANVIL, HIRAX, WHIPLASH, POSSESSED, tons more that would have been impossible to see elsewhere. ARTILLERY put on one of the absolute best shows I have ever seen. Even now, I’m sure I’m forgetting some great ones. Plus I got introduced to tons of new bands, some of which I only saw once. There was one particular group called BEAST OF THE FIELD that blew my head off and then promptly broke up. Lots of great Wisconsin bands got featured, like TOXIC RUIN, MORTA SKULD, YOTUMA, and many more. Who else would support the local metal scene like this? That’s what I worry about the most, now that Randy is hanging it up.

Among the great friends I made over the years were a couple of guys who now write here at Wormwood, Bob Burner and Mercyful Mike. The guy I’ve had the most fun with over the years is Johnny Vomit, who delivered a lot of hilarious commentary on bands he didn’t like. Other names that  come to mind are “Caveman” Carl Pavesich, Ed Knecht and his lovely lady Jill, Evan Yunker, Mark from Metal Haven in Chicago, Nino and Pete from BRAY ROAD. And then there are guys who are no longer with us, like Mad Brad Toth, Jesse “El Vato” and Big Jim. Tons of others, some of whom I don’t even know the name of, but I ran into them every year. Where will I see them again? Who knows?

Who will step up to take the torch? I fear Randy’s departure leaves a hole in the Southern Wisconsin scene that will never be filled. Without promoters like this, there is no scene. So hopefully someone will take that step. Maybe…you?